I've been with Unchained for years, but you might have just convinced me to look at Onramp, mostly because Unchained pulled the old bait and switch on me. I was under the impression that I would only pay one fee (like $1,200) when creating my multi-sig vault, and for years that was true, but they're gonna be asking me for $250/year in the future to maintain my vault.
Referring to the graphic you used, is it really accurate to rate multi-institution custody as high on safety and security as Self-Custody and so much higher than 3rd-party custody (especially when multi-institution custody IS 3rd-party custody, just with three 3rd parties instead of one)?
At the very least, I see there's some diversification in the governments to which the three parties are subject (i.e., the US and the UK, rather than all three in the same jurisdiction). That said, the US and UK regulatory regimes typically move in tandem and work together, so it's not outside the realm of possibility to imagine they'd work together to come after Coincover, Bitgo, and OnRamp if they really wanted to.
So we're clear, I'm not against your product and I'm sure a lot of people will decide to use it. But I see it as more of a middle ground between single-institution custody and self custody, not the absolute best of both worlds like Onramp's graphic presents it.
It feels like you have either a: never experienced having generational wealth or b: never had kids. What happens when the only two adults that know the combo to the safe and the password to the trezor die in a car accident and now you’re left relying on some distant family member to find the 24 words and somehow pass the bitcoin to your kids who are only toddlers. And do you really trust this person to pass the bitcoin to the kids when the kids are old enough. How do you ensure that this person does’t mess up or die?
NANOTECH COMPANY GOING PUBLIC - check out the site for Cornerstone Spectrum click here ---> http://cornerstonespectrum.com ACCEPTING CRYPTO FOR PRE-IPO SHARES
Let's say I have a Trezor in my home safe with 10 BTC on it.
A $5 wrench attack happens to me at home and I say 'I don't have any BTC.' They don't believe me and beat me to death trying to get me to tell them where it is. The BTC is still safe and my family knows how to access it.
Now let's say I don't store my 10 BTC on my Trezor, but rather I have multi-institution custody setup.
A $5 wrench attack happens to me at home and I say 'I do have BTC, but it's setup in multi-institution custody'. They don't believe me and beat me to death trying to get me to tell them where it is. The BTC is still safe and my family knows how to access it.
Morbid scenario, but let's dig into it. There's a high likelihood that this kind of attack makes you WANT to cave in. You can either:
1) Have the ability to cave in and hand over the Trezor in your possession. Coins gone for you and/or family.
2) Not be able to cave in because you don't have a Trezor to hand over. Instead, you have statements & a login showing that you hold Bitcoin with Onramp, and here are the (lofty & protracted) requirements that need to be met for a withdrawal. Coins safe for you and/or family.
You think the guys with the bloody wrench will sit thru my On Ramp presentation while I'm bleeding out, and then look at eachother and nod in unison and say 'OK, ya. We understand - have a nice day. Sorry about all this.'.
if I do WANT to cave in and have a Trezor - I would hand it over and live.
If I don't have a Trezor but rather have a multi-institution custody setup and WANT to cave it, I won't have the option to hand them anything - it's dangerous because they probably won't believe me and literally CAVE my head in. The bandits will have a pre-conceived notion that I DO have some Crypto of value in the house. Otherwise, they wouldn't risk being there.
Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just thinking through the scenarios, and I don't see how a multi-institution custody setup is safer in the $5 wrench scenario.
Jesse, could you please address issue for those of us who had paid for a year of your service up front. Pausing payments does nothing for us. I’ve emailed your Substack support email twice - no acknowledgment or response. I signed up and paid for this service for 2-3 articles weekly. It has come nowhere near to that so I would like a refund. It’s embarrassing that I have to address this in open comments.
Not seeing any email, not sure where you sent it to - could be going to somewhere I'm not seeing. Can you send me an email to jesse.a.myers at gmail? And mention the email address your Substack account uses, so I can find it in the payments platform. Thanks, Jesse
I’ve just emailed again. I copy and pasted from your message but that didn’t have .com so likely gone missing although no error was reported when sent. Odd but you should hopefully have email now.
I've been with Unchained for years, but you might have just convinced me to look at Onramp, mostly because Unchained pulled the old bait and switch on me. I was under the impression that I would only pay one fee (like $1,200) when creating my multi-sig vault, and for years that was true, but they're gonna be asking me for $250/year in the future to maintain my vault.
We would love to tell you more about the Onramp product, if you're curious! https://onrampbitcoin.com/contact-us/
Referring to the graphic you used, is it really accurate to rate multi-institution custody as high on safety and security as Self-Custody and so much higher than 3rd-party custody (especially when multi-institution custody IS 3rd-party custody, just with three 3rd parties instead of one)?
At the very least, I see there's some diversification in the governments to which the three parties are subject (i.e., the US and the UK, rather than all three in the same jurisdiction). That said, the US and UK regulatory regimes typically move in tandem and work together, so it's not outside the realm of possibility to imagine they'd work together to come after Coincover, Bitgo, and OnRamp if they really wanted to.
So we're clear, I'm not against your product and I'm sure a lot of people will decide to use it. But I see it as more of a middle ground between single-institution custody and self custody, not the absolute best of both worlds like Onramp's graphic presents it.
i would agree
It feels like you have either a: never experienced having generational wealth or b: never had kids. What happens when the only two adults that know the combo to the safe and the password to the trezor die in a car accident and now you’re left relying on some distant family member to find the 24 words and somehow pass the bitcoin to your kids who are only toddlers. And do you really trust this person to pass the bitcoin to the kids when the kids are old enough. How do you ensure that this person does’t mess up or die?
They'll say we were lucky 😉
NANOTECH COMPANY GOING PUBLIC - check out the site for Cornerstone Spectrum click here ---> http://cornerstonespectrum.com ACCEPTING CRYPTO FOR PRE-IPO SHARES
lol .......... you need to read one of my books
is there an email address and a name?
Let's say I have a Trezor in my home safe with 10 BTC on it.
A $5 wrench attack happens to me at home and I say 'I don't have any BTC.' They don't believe me and beat me to death trying to get me to tell them where it is. The BTC is still safe and my family knows how to access it.
Now let's say I don't store my 10 BTC on my Trezor, but rather I have multi-institution custody setup.
A $5 wrench attack happens to me at home and I say 'I do have BTC, but it's setup in multi-institution custody'. They don't believe me and beat me to death trying to get me to tell them where it is. The BTC is still safe and my family knows how to access it.
How is one better than the other?
Morbid scenario, but let's dig into it. There's a high likelihood that this kind of attack makes you WANT to cave in. You can either:
1) Have the ability to cave in and hand over the Trezor in your possession. Coins gone for you and/or family.
2) Not be able to cave in because you don't have a Trezor to hand over. Instead, you have statements & a login showing that you hold Bitcoin with Onramp, and here are the (lofty & protracted) requirements that need to be met for a withdrawal. Coins safe for you and/or family.
That's pretty weak Jesse.
You think the guys with the bloody wrench will sit thru my On Ramp presentation while I'm bleeding out, and then look at eachother and nod in unison and say 'OK, ya. We understand - have a nice day. Sorry about all this.'.
if I do WANT to cave in and have a Trezor - I would hand it over and live.
If I don't have a Trezor but rather have a multi-institution custody setup and WANT to cave it, I won't have the option to hand them anything - it's dangerous because they probably won't believe me and literally CAVE my head in. The bandits will have a pre-conceived notion that I DO have some Crypto of value in the house. Otherwise, they wouldn't risk being there.
Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just thinking through the scenarios, and I don't see how a multi-institution custody setup is safer in the $5 wrench scenario.
Sounds like you want to be able to give up generational wealth. More power to you.
Jesse, could you please address issue for those of us who had paid for a year of your service up front. Pausing payments does nothing for us. I’ve emailed your Substack support email twice - no acknowledgment or response. I signed up and paid for this service for 2-3 articles weekly. It has come nowhere near to that so I would like a refund. It’s embarrassing that I have to address this in open comments.
Not seeing any email, not sure where you sent it to - could be going to somewhere I'm not seeing. Can you send me an email to jesse.a.myers at gmail? And mention the email address your Substack account uses, so I can find it in the payments platform. Thanks, Jesse
Will do. Email I was given was once-in-a-species@substack.com btw. Will forward on to address you’ve given.
I’ve just emailed again. I copy and pasted from your message but that didn’t have .com so likely gone missing although no error was reported when sent. Odd but you should hopefully have email now.
2 emails sent to your address above over past 3 days but no response.
Or just leave your email address connected to your Substack account here so I can find you and get a refund started for you in the payments platform
Not seeing anything. A few other people reached out to me successfully using the gmail I provided above. Nothing in my spam folders from you either.
Perhaps easier to reach me on Twitter? Send me a DM https://twitter.com/Croesus_BTC
Oh certainly. Will go find that email, apologies for that oversight on my part.
Hi Jesse, Similar to the issue raised by Sebastian, I too would like a refund for my premium annual subscription.
I sent you a message to that effect on your profile here: https://substack.com/@jessemyers